From the new book: Reinvent Yourself

Chapter Nine    

      The Art of Conversation

by Hal Gieseking

Think of "small talk" as just the beginning of a possible friendship. Ideas from Dick Cavett, Charles Kuralt, Dorothy Sarnoff, Mortimer Adler and Vincent Van Gogh (we're not making this up! - as Dave Barry likes to say)

Skip ahead to conversation ideas from

          Dick Cavett -  Starting a conversation

          Dorothy Sarnoff  - Prepare for important conversations

          Charles Kuralt  -  Ask people what they do for a living

          Mortimer Adler  - Listening is not a passive activity

          Dr. Richard Bimler  - Communicating what we want to communicate

          Hermine Hilton - Remembering names, the golden key to friendship

Sometimes a casual conversation can turn into a memory that lasts a lifetime.  That happened to me one sunny day in Amsterdam when I had the great luck of having a long conversation with Vincent Van Gogh.

            Before you begin to recommend an emergency meeting for me with a mental health professional, let me explain.

            I was visiting the new Van Gogh Museum on the day before its official opening.  Workers were putting the finishing touches on this magnificent structure.  From an atrium in the central hall sunlight flooded the galleries and brought Van Gogh’s vivid color to natural life.  In these pre-opening hours the gallery was almost deserted so it gave me a rare opportunity to stop and be entranced by each painting. There was a very old man walking slowly in front of me, also stopping for long periods at each painting.  I caught up with him and he smiled a greeting.

Then he began to speak softly.  “Ah, the Potato Eaters,” as he stared at the world-famous Van Gogh painting. Then he began to talk about why some of the people in the painting had such unusual faces. (I later learned that this painting had once hung over the mantle in this man’s home.) He paused again in front of the Vase with Flowers. (That had also hung in his living room.)  Next, The Harvest. “That was in Arles,” he said. “A very interesting time.” (That painting had originally hung over his cupboard.)

I couldn’t contain my curiosity much longer.  I introduced myself and asked, “How do you know so much about these paintings and come to own them?”

He smiled again. “I’m Vincent van Gogh.” Then he explained.

“My father was Theo, Vincent’s brother. When my mother died, I inherited almost all of his paintings.  I told the city of Amsterdam that if they built a museum for the paintings, I would donate all of them.  My family was not completely happy with my decision.”  But then he gazed around the building with some awe, clearly indicating it was all worth it.

“You speak really excellent English,” I said.

“Well, I have traveled to many countries for exhibitions of my uncle’s paintings.  Years ago I used to live in New Jersey.”

I was really taken aback by this. “New Jersey!”

“I worked for the New Jersey power company. I made drawings of power grids.  I used to amuse my co-workers because I always signed the sketches, ‘Vincent van Gogh’.”

I talked a few more minutes with this wonderful old man. I later learned that one of the paintings that hung in the Rijksmuseum had a very special meaning for him, Branches with Almond Blossom.  His uncle Vincent had dedicated this painting to his newly-born nephew.

I have thought about this conversation for many years.  And realized what I would have missed if I had not stopped to talk with this old man in an art museum.

Conversations can be an important part of our lifelong learning.  I began to think about the beginning of talk among people.

Imagine ancient warriors trying to make peace with each other. They learned to shake hands with their right hands to prove they weren’t holding a weapon. Then they made a series of soothing sounds to each other to prove they had not come in anger.

Meeting people in social settings today mirror this ritual. They shake hands and emit soothing “small talk” sounds to show they’re friendly. 

“Where are you from?”

“The weather has really been strange lately.”

“Do you have children?”

It all seems so simple. But for many people, including myself, it’s not. I have never mastered the art of small talk, especially when the person I have just met and I are exchanging rote responses without really listening to each other. I thoroughly enjoy dinner parties where I can sit next to someone and get to know them. I do well in business conversations where I am driven to make conversation and points about what I am trying to sell to the other person.  I also, ironically, love to talk on television or to be a speaker at any event.

When CBS hired me to talk about travel regularly on CBS Morning News, I went to those sessions with genuine delight and not a flicker of nerves. I had several million people to talk to (and if they got bored and went to the bathroom, I would never know it.)

But send me into a room of strangers at a cocktail party, and  I feel like Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark, being dropped into a pit of gyrating vipers.  First you have to find someone to talk with. But many conversation groups have already formed. You stand on the fringes and learn they are talking about Mary’s operation or the Patterson’s trip to Cancun. Nothing to contribute there.

You look for another “loner” in the crowd, and exchange the usual where-are-you-from. Then you may progress to stage two. Since by happenstance you happen to have been to their state or city, you begin to tell an anecdote about your visit. The person may then develop a “cocktail-party stare.” His or her eyes are moving around the room, looking for someone else to talk with. Or they may turn away halfway through your story with a quick “nice to meet” you and be on their way.  After several such encounters, I take an abnormal interest in the punch bowl, wondering how many cups it contains.

These are some basic “cracks” in my personality that I am working on to overcome, to reinvent my own life.  The rewards of being able to meet others easily are so great; the new friends you can make and  experiences you can share.

I have learned a great deal about this problem in recent years.  My wife does not have this problem. She glides through a room of total strangers as if it were a tenth family reunion, striking up conversations with the clink of a glass.  She also has become my conversation-tugboat, steering me into groups with a “have you met my husband?”  I take her to as many parties as possible.

Anthropologist Bronislaw Malinowski says the clichés we use at the beginning of a conversation “are unimportant – the fact that they are spoken is.”

 Most people realize these largely meaningless words are simply attempts to start a conversation. If you want to continue talking with that person, your response should not be too brief.  You must be reasonably enthusiastic and not respond in a monotone. Eye contact is important.

Body posture is also important. Turning your shoulder slightly away from an approaching person instantly signals that you are not interested in talking. A bored expression can usually stomp a beginning conversation into silence in seconds.

I had the pleasure of talking at length with three master conversationalists -  Dorothy Sarnoff, Charles Kuralt and Dick Cavett.  It was easy to talk with them. I had a purpose; I was on business.

 “You have to be prepared with some larder for a conversation,” Dorothy Sarnoff said.  “Sometimes you see top executives at a dinner party who have mighty hard times making conversation.  In a social situation they don’t know how to deal one-on-one with people.  If they aren’t with their business crowd, they become the lowest pebble in the beach. I had to rescue one of them.”

Dorothy Sarnoff is Chairman of Speech Dynamics in New York.

“You may meet someone at a party who has a very negative face,” she said.  “You have to be prepared for skeptical faces. Otherwise you start thinking, ‘Oh, he has already sized me up and he doesn’t like me.’ Many people are inclined to think negatively about themselves.

“But you can also go to the other extreme in social conversation, talk too much. That’s when you get that misty, dewy look in people’s eyes. So you really want to keep your eyes tuned in. It’s an antenna to give you feedback on how you are affecting other people.  Most people don’t realize you should be 90% eye to eye contact in a conversation.

“Your face should be in the act, too. The mono-faced person is a great chiller socially.  Your face can be a source of warmth for others.”

Dorothy asked one top executive who his favorite composers were.  He said “Rogers and Hammerstein.”  She asked him to sing one of their songs, Oklahoma, and she made a videotape of his performance. Then she played it back for him and told him how alive his face had become during the song.

“So why don’t you use those same lively expressions when you are talking with people?” she asked.

Ms. Sarnoff provided two suggestions that I still try to practice today.

“Whenever you are making or receiving an important phone call, stand up. It makes you more alert.”

And the second is advice I sometimes follow.

“Make sure you finish speaking before your audience stops listening.”

            I met a beaming Charles Kuralt in his office at CBS. He must have been singing Oklahoma! in his mind when we met because he had the lively face and the "active smile" Ms. Sarnoff recommend.

            We began with some small talk. “You must have been on more U.S. highways than anyone in history,” I said.

            “I have been to almost every state repeatedly,” he said. “Except Hawaii. Hawaii looks so bad on the expense account.  In 1976 we went to every single state to do a little moment of history.  At the end I sat down with my cameraman, Izzy Blackman. We looked at a map, and we couldn’t find a federal numbered highway that we hadn’t been down at one time or another. I’d say, ‘Here’s one we missed,’ and he’s day, ‘No, don’t you remember that time we were headed toward the woman who makes fiddles in the Ozarks.’ I have to admit I am pretty well traveled in this country.”

            I asked him how he started conversations with strangers all over America.

            “I start by asking people something about what they’re doing. If it’s a person who works in a grain storage silo or in a garage or in a café, what I always do is start by talking about what they do for a living. That generally gets people talking because they have an interest in their own line of work.”

            I asked him if that also helped people on vacation meet others.

            “Once in a little town in Kansas, north of Tribune, I met a couple from Chicago.  They were a young couple, not well off, on their way West. They had so much wanted to see the Rockies. They were in an old Volkswagen, and it broke down in this little town, Goodland, Kansas. The time that they had for their vacation just ran out while they waited for a part to come for their car. The manager of the motel in Goodland sent them over to see the grain storage silo.  It was the time of the wheat harvest so they went out and pretty soon somebody took them to see the harvest. We’d see them every few days, meeting and talking with people. They were still there and still hadn’t seen the Rockies.  But I think they had a better vacation than they would have if they had gone on. They really got to know the people of Goodland.  I think they went home having made new friends and with a determination to come back and see them again.

            “I like to talk with people. I mean if you see a fellow plowing a field and he comes to the end of the furrow and you’re standing there, he may spend ten minutes talking with you about what he’s doing.           

“Whenever I see somebody lamenting that every place is just like every other place, I feel it’s somebody who doesn’t know the country very well. I love the differences. I just came from North Carolina, my home state, just wandering around and talking to people. Generally they’re eager to talk, and you can hear more yarns and songs and lies. Once you get into the Appalachian Mountains or the Ozarks, some of those places have a tradition of story telling. It’s pretty hard to leave if you’re really interested in people.  I think some people are probably a little too shy on vacation. Besides being in too much of a hurry.  All the rewards are in getting to know people, stopping and talking.

            “Let me give you a couple examples. There’s a doctor in a little town in Missouri who doesn’t charge anything for his services. He never has. People pay him, if they pay him at all, with jars of buttermilk or some vegetables from the garden. He says he likes it better than money. Considering the cost of medical care these days, to run across Dr. Knuckles out there in a little town was quite a surprise.

“There was another man, a black man, who lived in Gastonia, North Carolina. He was getting on in age. He had the most interesting things to say about what he did. He had grown up without a bicycle, and he hated the thought of others growing up without one. So he established sort of a lending library of bicycles in his garage. He finds old junk bicycles, lets the kids use them, and his yard has become the gathering place of all the children of the community, which gives him great pleasure. It insures that nobody at least around there has to grow up without a bicycle.

“I love to eat. I think every traveler should make a point of trying not to eat every meal in the motel dining room – that’s the safe and easy thing to do.  When I am talking to people who work at the motel, I ask. ‘Where do you go to dinner? I am not talking about the place you take your parents to on Sunday, just the place you go.

“If a person travels with a great deal of curiosity, it’s easy to start up a conversation with locals.  They can ask - ‘What are those curious rocks formations outside of town? When is cherry blossom time around here? People are usually glad to tell you all about it.”

Dick Cavett, perennial talk show host, admitted that some of the people he has talked with on his programs have really surprised him.

“When I was talking with B. Arthur before the show, she told me she didn’t really want to do it. She said, ‘I don’t think I’m very good at this kind of thing. I don’t enjoy it, and it scares me and worries me.’”

“I told her that if she didn’t really want to be interviewed, she shouldn’t put herself through it. Well, after that, she went right on and she was fine. ‘I really did want to do it,’ she told me.

“Katherine Hepburn was very nervous when we first start talking on the show.  But inexhaustible when she got going.

“Robert Mitchum, the actor who was so taciturn in all of his movie roles, was one of a handful of the most interesting people I ever met with his ability to talk about anything. You couldn’t name anything he hadn’t read. He had so many sides, using the language beautifully. He even composed music.”

That’s how Dick Cavett and I began a long conversation about conversation.  How do you start a good conversation?  How do you develop it?

Not surprisingly, he had a lot to say about the art of good talk.

“You begin most conversations on a very superficial level. I hate it at parties when some intense person who’s involved in some current cultural cult comes up to me and says, ‘What are you really looking for in life?’  This is not how to begin a conversation with me. I am not looking for that person. There seems to be an idea that conversation is only significant if it’s deep and sensitive and about ‘meaningful experiences’ which can be shared. Almost all of the words in what I just said could be stricken from the language, and I’d be happy.

“I’ve learned that the subject of themselves is invariably interesting to the people you are talking with.  You should frequently use the word ‘you’ to keep the other person listening and talking. It’s magical when you know someone’s name. It’s worth a million  good anecdotes. Their name is music to their ears. One of my faults – if I lived to be 10,000, I have never learned to listen to people’s names. If you can only develop that habit, you almost don’t have to worry about anything else.

“People who don’t get to the point are irritating to me. So do people whose conversation sounds as if it were written by a lawyer, who think that to impress you they have to sound not only highfalutin but roundabout, to get extra points for elaborate and tedious and complicated trips toward their point.

“Also on my list.  People who use words such as ‘interface.’ Or the guest who was discussing a very complex problem and said, ‘We have to determine its parameters.’ After a pause I asked, ‘Do you mean limits?’ Sometimes people use ‘canned’ material in their conversations. They’re telling you something exactly as they have said it seven times and maybe the story is not true any more.

“I think you can become a better conversationalist by reading more things outside of your field. If you’re going into a business meeting, it helps if you know something about the people you are going to meet. But you don’t want to over-prepare either. You then could have a tendency to disgorge all you know, that you have to make use of all your preparations. So you find yourself standing there, suddenly realizing that your listener’s eyes are just a little out of focus. You can’t really be listening to the guest because you’re really thinking of ‘What was the next thing I was going to get into?’ But if you were really listening, you might find that the other person is saying something much more interesting than what you were about to say.

“It’s as if somebody was telling you a story and said, ‘And then we pulled up the lid of the trunk, and you’ll never guess what we found!’ And you find yourself saying, ‘Do you travel much out of the country?’ It’s a terrible cliché but true. To be a good conversationalist, you have to be a good listener.

“I am kind of gregarious, and I can have a very good time talking.”

Hermine Hilton, author of the Executive Memory Guide, said that tests indicated the average person begins to forget names just heard in about seven seconds. The problem is compounded when you are introduced to several people in a row.

She recommends an old but useful device:

“First really listen to the name when you’re introduced.  Ask the person to repeat it if you’re not sure of the correct pronunciation. Most people are flattered that you care enough to try to get their name right.

“Now you can use a mnemonic device (a memory aide). Link the new name with a word or idea already in your mind. You have just created your own mnemonic device for easy recall.

“Example: put the name in an existing mental category. Perhaps the name is the same or similar to someone you already know – a friend, celebrity or historical figure.  Or relate the name to a color or object.  Red. Hills.  If the name doesn’t fit into one of these categories easily, you can sometimes change it.  ‘Kendle’ could become ‘candle,’ a word already in your mind that could now trigger the recall of the person’s name.”

If you wanted to remember the name of the person who offered this tip, “Hilton,” link it in your mind to “hotel chain.”

Mortimer Adler was convinced that the art of listening is one of the key skills of communication.

 He said, “If someone says to you, ‘Shall I tell you why I love you?’ or ‘We’re thinking of promoting you to Vice President,’ you stop daydreaming and really listen to what that person has to say.

“If you can bring even a small degree of that intense motivation to other conversations and meetings, all other rules about how to listen become secondary.”

I really listened to Mortimer Adler.  My motivation: I had to write an article about the art of listening that was due in about twenty-four hours.

It’s hard to classify Mortimer Adler, even in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, where he served as Chairman of the Board of Editors. He also authored 29 books, including How to Speak, How to Listen.

He stressed that to participate in good conversations or meetings, you must learn to be a good listener, and it’s much harder than most people think.

Here are four Adler rules for listening.

1.                          Listening is not a passive activity. Unless your mind is involved as well as your ear, you aren’t really hearing the other person.

2.                          Listen for key words and ideas. Reach out and catch what is in the mind of the speaker – just as the catcher in a baseball game sometimes has to reach out for the ball the pitcher has just thrown.

3.                          Don’t be distracted by how the person speaks or unusual mannerisms. Try to understand what the speaker’s intentions are. What is he or she trying to communicate to you?

4.                          There’s one easy thing you can do when you are not sure if you understand what the other person is trying to tell you.  You can say, “Did I understand you to say –”  Now put what you think the person has said in your own words. If the speaker agrees you’ve stated the point correctly, now you are free to agree or disagree.  To agree before you understand what the other person has said is inane. To disagree before you understand is impertinent.

At the end of our conversation, Mr. Adler with a somewhat mischievous look, said, “Now can you tell me what I just told you?”

Thanks to a blessing of a tape recorder, I could.

            Rev.  C. Kettner is a retired minister living in Virginia Beach, Virginia. He fills in for other ministers who may be on vacation or ill. During one recent sermon, he used this rather vivid description of people you may meet and talk with.

            “Some people are like wax paper,” he said. “What you say to them slides right off.

            “Others may get your message but it’s like writing on tissue paper. The words blur.

            “Talking with others may be like writing on sand paper. They fight the pen and argue with what you are saying.

            “But there are others who are like good bond paper.  What you say they remember in clear sharp relief.”

            In the insightful book Laughter  - How good humor can help you lighten your cares as we celebrate joy in the Lord, Richard Bimler, former president of the Lutheran Wheat Ridge Ministries, told this story: (For more about this book, click here.)

            Isn’t it amazing how often we fail to communicate what we want to communicate? Why can’t we explain ourselves better? Why do people misunderstand us? Why don’t I think more before I talk?

            Check out this dialogue and see if you can connect with it.

            A farmer walked into an attorney’s office to file for a divorce.

            The attorney asked, “May I help you?”

            The farmer said, “Yeah, I want to get one of them dayvorces.”

            The attorney said, “Well, do you have any grounds?

    The farmer said, “Yeah, I got about 140 acres.”

            The attorney said, “No, you don’t understand; do you have a case?”

            The farmer said, “No, I don’t have a Case, but I have a John Deere.”

            The attorney said, “No, you don’t understand. I mean do you have a grudge?”

            The farmer said, “Yeah, I’ve got a grudge. That’s where I park my John Deere.”

            The attorney said, “No, sir, I mean do you have a suit?”

            The farmer said, “Yes, sir, I got a suit. I wear it to church on Sundays.”

            The exasperated attorney said, “Well, sir, does your wife beat you up or anything?”

            The farmer said, “No, sir, we both get up about 4:30.”

            The attorney said, “Okay, let me put it this way. Why do you want a divorce?”

            The farmer replied, “Well, I can never have a meaningful conversation with her.”

Reinventing yourself

Think about:

How many times this past week have you initiated a conversation with a friend, family member or someone new?

If so, what do you remember from that conversation? If not much, re-read some of Mortimer Adler’s advice (in this chapter) about active listening.  Listening is a form of lifelong learning.

Take action:

Sometime this week, start a conversation with a new person you’ve just met. You probably must start with small talk. Weather. Children. Price of milk. The words are unimportant. What they mean, I would like to talk with you. If the person picks up the cue, you can begin to expand your conversation by asking questions. Listen for key words.  Don’t try to get too personal too quickly. But actively listen to what they say. In pauses repeat in your own mind what you believe they’ve just said. Use their name frequently in your conversation.

Will all this work? Sometimes not. The other person may have different priorities or places to be. They may be thinking of something entirely different – personal problems, a visit to the doctor’s office or may just be shy. So don’t consider a failed conversation a snub. It’s just one more rehearsal of how to relate to others.

Words to consider: 

“The great gift of conversation lies less in displaying it ourselves than in drawing it out of others. He who leaves your company pleased with himself and his own cleverness is perfectly well pleased with you.” 

Jean de la Bruyere

“Conversation:  Something that starts the moment you put your foot through the television set.”         Anonymous 

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